European countries are welcoming Ukrainian refugees with open arms. But migrants from other parts of the world get much different treatment, as reporter Sally Hayden reveals in her new book. 'My Fourth Time, we Drowned" tells the story of how EU policy has helped create an inhumane system that ends in imprisonment in Libyan detention centres for thousands of migrants. Sally talked to Sorcha Pollak about how she communicated with migrants trapped in Libya and the unseen consequences of Europe's determination to keep migration numbers down.

This episode was originally published in April 2022.

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